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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2014 9:53:23 GMT -6
Disclaimer: Tray deserves credit for getting all of this in spreadsheet form. He was probably the main reason this is happening. There is no way I would have done this without that.
Good morning sim leaguers. the analysis continues and i've got a treat for you today. Last aritcle you saw me progress out of fetal position to come back into the world again after LJ, and this one you get to see me regress back into a corners rocking myself to sleep. So with that being said, let's let the regression progress and get this started. Now upon doing analysis for PF I came to realize a few things. The drastic differences we saw from the Center position. the Center position, we saw 2 players 2 Standard Deviations from the mean where as the Power Forward position, the best player is only 1.34 Standard devations from the mean. What does this mean? Pretty much the varation from the top to the bottom is less drastic that the PF than the Center positions. The talent pool is greater.
Overall PFs: Tier 1 I'll drag your cold dead body to the playoffs 1. Karl Malone 2. Charles Barkley 3. Shawn Kemp
Tier 2 Don't build your team around me, build me around your team 1. Reggie Williams 2. Horace Grant 3. Tom Gugliotta
Tier 3 Fuck you Training Camp 1. Derrick McKey 2. Robert Horry 3. Larry Johnson 4. Christian Laettner
Larry Johnson dropped from an easy top 4 player to fringe top 10 player.
Offensive Wonder 1. Karl Malone 2. Chrles Barkley 3. Shawn Kemp 4. Larry Johnson
I would list 5 but there is a HUGE drop off after #4
Garbage Man: Guys who are known to eat up the boards not only in skill but athleticism. 1. Shawn Kemp 2. Tyrone Hill 3. Karl Malone 4. Charles Barkley 5. Chris Gatling ... 8. Dennis Rodman (Lack of physical attributes and weighting of rebounding leaves him off the top 10).
Defensive Anchor: Guys who combine Strength, jumping, Post D, and Defensive Rebounding at an elite level 1. Shawn Kemp 2. Karl Malone 3. Chris Gatling 4. Tyrone Hill 5. Charles Barkley (shockingly enough) ... 28. Larry Johnson
The Freak Athlete: Athletic Phenom 1. Larry Johnson 2. Chris Gatling 3. Shawn Kemp 4. Karl Malone 5. Charles Barkley 6. Brad Daughterly
The Snippers 1. Terry Mills 2. Reggie Williams 3. Sam Perkins 4. Cliff Robinson 5. Robert Horry
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Soundwave
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Post by Soundwave on Jan 20, 2014 10:03:23 GMT -6
Hmm, no Coleman anywhere to be seen. Very interesting.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2014 10:07:24 GMT -6
Hmm, no Coleman anywhere to be seen. Very interesting. Overall #16 Offensive Wonder #19 Garbage Man #24 Defensive Anchor #20 The freak #35 Sniper #13 He's really average at most. He's not a - standard Devation at anything which is really good but he really doesn't jump out anywhere.
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Post by TrayWithAnA on Jan 20, 2014 10:15:03 GMT -6
Laettner?
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jhow0036
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Post by jhow0036 on Jan 20, 2014 10:28:59 GMT -6
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Soundwave
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Post by Soundwave on Jan 20, 2014 10:37:24 GMT -6
Hmm, no Coleman anywhere to be seen. Very interesting. Overall #16 Offensive Wonder #19 Garbage Man #24 Defensive Anchor #20 The freak #35 Sniper #13 He's really average at most. He's not a - standard Devation at anything which is really good but he really doesn't jump out anywhere. The fact that a 2-time all-star PF does not rank in the top 12 of any type of PF ranking is pretty odd to say the least. Not questioning the rankings, just thinking that the player rating #'s are not the end all be all.
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Post by NOLa. on Jan 20, 2014 10:46:11 GMT -6
Now if only Malone can shoot 3s we can take over the sim world.
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Post by 78 on Jan 20, 2014 10:51:27 GMT -6
Grant Long has SF skills in a PF body, except for his shooting.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2014 11:38:44 GMT -6
Overall #16 Offensive Wonder #19 Garbage Man #24 Defensive Anchor #20 The freak #35 Sniper #13 He's really average at most. He's not a - standard Devation at anything which is really good but he really doesn't jump out anywhere. The fact that a 2-time all-star PF does not rank in the top 12 of any type of PF ranking is pretty odd to say the least. Not questioning the rankings, just thinking that the player rating #'s are not the end all be all. Objectively speaking. This is based off of current ratings, so the ratings between Coleman's first year and now don't matter. So throw out one of the all star games because he like LJ is a sheel of himself versus that year. Last year is the one we should be discussing. I looked through them and every one of them listed above Coleman has never been a scoring option and to be frank that's why he made the list (his offense). Now that brings up the next question, why isn't he high in the offensive wonder list which comes down to two things he's really below average on, strength and offensive rebounding ability. Two things he is below average versus the field which hurt him a lot. Again, should the categories be weighted, probably. I highly doubt jumping (something he scored well in btw) should weigh into offense as much as inside game; but it is what it is.
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Soundwave
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Post by Soundwave on Jan 20, 2014 12:27:09 GMT -6
The fact that a 2-time all-star PF does not rank in the top 12 of any type of PF ranking is pretty odd to say the least. Not questioning the rankings, just thinking that the player rating #'s are not the end all be all. Objectively speaking. This is based off of current ratings, so the ratings between Coleman's first year and now don't matter. So throw out one of the all star games because he like LJ is a sheel of himself versus that year. Last year is the one we should be discussing. I looked through them and every one of them listed above Coleman has never been a scoring option and to be frank that's why he made the list (his offense). Now that brings up the next question, why isn't he high in the offensive wonder list which comes down to two things he's really below average on, strength and offensive rebounding ability. Two things he is below average versus the field which hurt him a lot. Again, should the categories be weighted, probably. I highly doubt jumping (something he scored well in btw) should weigh into offense as much as inside game; but it is what it is. Out of the 4 "fitness" ranks, it was my understanding that jumping may be the most offensively important. According to the FAQ it has to do with ability to get to the rim. Probably shouldn't carry as much weight as ORB, but just as much if not more than the others. Sure you can discount his year 1 all-star selection, but you cannot discount year 2. According to Mr. Uter, there was only one better in the EC last season. And if it is because he was a scoring option, then why aren't the others? But I am willing to concede that I am just that awesome of a coach that I can turn "average at most" into an all-star. No he doesn't excel at one thing, and maybe that's what this list is about. I don't really get what you were trying to do with the "Fuck you training camp" section, but Coleman would be the founder of that group. The whole McKey inclusion has me puzzled. Is that section supposed to be a continuation of the best PF's? Like #'s 7-10? Just saying that if an all-star is left off of a Rankings list, then maybe the ranking system should be tweaked. I don't know enough about what you did to say how, but may I suggest some actual stats? Or is that besides the point? Maybe the weighting is a bit skewed? Or maybe I'm Midas? As far as his defense, it brings a tear to my eye that he was once a first team defender. Got room in that corner for 1 more? P.s. - keep up the good work.
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Soundwave
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Post by Soundwave on Jan 20, 2014 12:36:36 GMT -6
Also very curious when you do the SF section how much weight you put into PSD vs PRD?
Really would like to know which skill set is more valuable for that position?
My personal opinion, after doing my "Winning!" piece is PSD right now because of a general lack of 3 point shooters but PRD also helps stop the drives, correct? I feel PRD will be more important as time goes on in this league.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2014 12:37:24 GMT -6
Objectively speaking. This is based off of current ratings, so the ratings between Coleman's first year and now don't matter. So throw out one of the all star games because he like LJ is a sheel of himself versus that year. Last year is the one we should be discussing. I looked through them and every one of them listed above Coleman has never been a scoring option and to be frank that's why he made the list (his offense). Now that brings up the next question, why isn't he high in the offensive wonder list which comes down to two things he's really below average on, strength and offensive rebounding ability. Two things he is below average versus the field which hurt him a lot. Again, should the categories be weighted, probably. I highly doubt jumping (something he scored well in btw) should weigh into offense as much as inside game; but it is what it is. Out of the 4 "fitness" ranks, it was my understanding that jumping may be the most offensively important. According to the FAQ it has to do with ability to get to the rim. Probably shouldn't carry as much weight as ORB, but just as much if not more than the others.
Sure you can discount his year 1 all-star selection, but you cannot discount year 2. According to Mr. Uter, there was only one better in the EC last season. And if it is because he was a scoring option, then why aren't the others? But I am willing to concede that I am just that awesome of a coach that I can turn "average at most" into an all-star. No he doesn't excel at one thing, and maybe that's what this list is about. I don't really get what you were trying to do with the "Fuck you training camp" section, but Coleman would be the founder of that group. The whole McKey inclusion has me puzzled. Is that section supposed to be a continuation of the best PF's? Like #'s 7-10? Just saying that if an all-star is left off of a Rankings list, then maybe the ranking system should be tweaked. I don't know enough about what you did to say how, but may I suggest some actual stats? Or is that besides the point? Maybe the weighting is a bit skewed? Or maybe I'm Midas? As far as his defense, it brings a tear to my eye that he was once a first team defender. Got room in that corner for 1 more? P.s. - keep up the good work. There is no weighting. That was the whole point to my last post. the weighting isnt skewed because there is no weighting. coleman made the All star game because of his incredible offensive numbers. How he got them, whether the overall team realied heavily on him or he was an efficient scorer was not taken into account on this. If I had the code to the game i'm sure i could do some sort of weighting, without it, it's tough. I think Coleman has a lot of value on a team that needs a scoring boost. He shot an overall vetter % last season despite the ratings changes which is strong work. Pat yourself on the back. Regarding fuck you training camp, that was me being bitter and not having another name. Wave, I'll always got room for 1 more for the pity party!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2014 12:38:49 GMT -6
Also very curious when you do the SF section how much weight you put into PSD vs PRD? Really would like to know which skill set is more valuable for that position? My personal opinion, after doing my "Winning!" piece is PSD right now because of a general lack of 3 point shooters but PRD also helps stop the drives, correct? I feel PRD will be more important as time goes on in this league. No weighting as of now but i may work through that sometime soon. If i really wanted to get fancy I'd do an anaysis on the types of scorers there are at each postion, ie outside versus inside per position the position they would have to guard and weight it accordingingly. I think i'll put post and prd in there though.
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Soundwave
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Post by Soundwave on Jan 20, 2014 12:41:42 GMT -6
Out of the 4 "fitness" ranks, it was my understanding that jumping may be the most offensively important. According to the FAQ it has to do with ability to get to the rim. Probably shouldn't carry as much weight as ORB, but just as much if not more than the others.
Sure you can discount his year 1 all-star selection, but you cannot discount year 2. According to Mr. Uter, there was only one better in the EC last season. And if it is because he was a scoring option, then why aren't the others? But I am willing to concede that I am just that awesome of a coach that I can turn "average at most" into an all-star. No he doesn't excel at one thing, and maybe that's what this list is about. I don't really get what you were trying to do with the "Fuck you training camp" section, but Coleman would be the founder of that group. The whole McKey inclusion has me puzzled. Is that section supposed to be a continuation of the best PF's? Like #'s 7-10? Just saying that if an all-star is left off of a Rankings list, then maybe the ranking system should be tweaked. I don't know enough about what you did to say how, but may I suggest some actual stats? Or is that besides the point? Maybe the weighting is a bit skewed? Or maybe I'm Midas? As far as his defense, it brings a tear to my eye that he was once a first team defender. Got room in that corner for 1 more? P.s. - keep up the good work. There is no weighting. That was the whole point to my last post. the weighting isnt skewed because there is no weighting. coleman made the All star game because of his incredible offensive numbers. How he got them, whether the overall team realied heavily on him or he was an efficient scorer was not taken into account on this. If I had the code to the game i'm sure i could do some sort of weighting, without it, it's tough. I think Coleman has a lot of value on a team that needs a scoring boost. He shot an overall vetter % last season despite the ratings changes which is strong work. Pat yourself on the back. Regarding fuck you training camp, that was me being bitter and not having another name. Wave, I'll always got room for 1 more for the pity party! Sorry, read it wrong. There is no weighting. got it. But is jumping even included in the offensive formula?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2014 12:44:08 GMT -6
There is no weighting. That was the whole point to my last post. the weighting isnt skewed because there is no weighting. coleman made the All star game because of his incredible offensive numbers. How he got them, whether the overall team realied heavily on him or he was an efficient scorer was not taken into account on this. If I had the code to the game i'm sure i could do some sort of weighting, without it, it's tough. I think Coleman has a lot of value on a team that needs a scoring boost. He shot an overall vetter % last season despite the ratings changes which is strong work. Pat yourself on the back. Regarding fuck you training camp, that was me being bitter and not having another name. Wave, I'll always got room for 1 more for the pity party! Sorry, read it wrong. There is no weighting. got it. But is jumping even included in the offensive formula? Yep . Strength was a hit though. In retrospect those probably should have been reversed lol.
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Soundwave
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Post by Soundwave on Jan 20, 2014 12:44:15 GMT -6
Also very curious when you do the SF section how much weight you put into PSD vs PRD? Really would like to know which skill set is more valuable for that position? My personal opinion, after doing my "Winning!" piece is PSD right now because of a general lack of 3 point shooters but PRD also helps stop the drives, correct? I feel PRD will be more important as time goes on in this league. No weighting as of now but i may work through that sometime soon. If i really wanted to get fancy I'd do an anaysis on the types of scorers there are at each postion, ie outside versus inside per position the position they would have to guard and weight it accordingingly. I think i'll put post and prd in there though. Again, I misread the weighting thing, so this is pretty much a moot point for the rankings. Have to include both PSD and PRD for SF. It is still an interesting question though and some opinions on it would be cool.
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Post by WigNosy on Jan 20, 2014 12:53:24 GMT -6
One thing I'm noticing with the rankings - players that do something that is not "normal" for the position exceptionally well (e.g., a center who shoots threes) tend to get a nice bump up the rankings. This is, I think, a product of the methodology ("how far are you from the mean") than anything else.
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Post by IamQuailman on Jan 20, 2014 13:03:14 GMT -6
AWARDED 5 POINTS (due to this, the center article and podcast, you can only claim 3 as you have hit your 10pt max for this season)! THANKS FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTION!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2014 13:05:10 GMT -6
One thing I'm noticing with the rankings - players that do something that is not "normal" for the position exceptionally well (e.g., a center who shoots threes) tend to get a nice bump up the rankings. This is, I think, a product of the methodology ("how far are you from the mean") than anything else. Exactly. If you're a 90 3 point shooter and the mean is 50 and the Std is 10 then you're 4 Std over mean therefore giving you a huge advantage if you're average elsewhere.
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Post by WigNosy on Jan 20, 2014 13:21:00 GMT -6
Worth noting: all star and all league and MVP selections appear to be made based on stats not ratings. Guys who don't collect as many stats (due to injury, slow pace, playing with lots of other high volume scorers, etc.) Have a harder time making those teams than guys who are the sole option on a fast-paced team and avoid injury.
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Post by LoCo89 on Jan 20, 2014 14:45:15 GMT -6
Hmm, no Coleman anywhere to be seen. Very interesting. Overall #16 Offensive Wonder #19 Garbage Man #24 Defensive Anchor #20 The freak #35 Sniper #13 He's really average at most. He's not a - standard Devation at anything which is really good but he really doesn't jump out anywhere. Can I get one of these for Daugherty
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Post by IamQuailman on Jan 20, 2014 14:49:44 GMT -6
And Thorpe
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2014 15:03:00 GMT -6
And Thorpe Nope
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2014 15:03:33 GMT -6
Overall #16 Offensive Wonder #19 Garbage Man #24 Defensive Anchor #20 The freak #35 Sniper #13 He's really average at most. He's not a - standard Devation at anything which is really good but he really doesn't jump out anywhere. Can I get one of these for Daugherty Sure thing as soon as im done w work.
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Soundwave
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Post by Soundwave on Jan 20, 2014 15:05:23 GMT -6
Can I get one of these for Daugherty Sure thing as soon as im done w work. How you like that can of worms?
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